Martina Ziegenfuss: Creating Outside the Box

This conversation is about what happens when you realize your TPM and ops skills are already a product and decide to package them. Martina shares the origin story behind Clervio, the fractional operator venture she co-founded with partner Jim Elvidge while navigating her next chapter. We get into the juggle, the mindset shift, and why a friend in Paris funding a writing life through walking tours became a concrete blueprint for what's possible.

Bonus: What crochet teaches you about pacing a transformation.

Martina Ziegenfuss spent years inside big tech turning complexity into execution: post-acquisition integrations, cross-functional programs, operating model design. She's the person you call when things need to actually work.

Then she built something of her own.

About Martina Ziegenfuss

Martina Ziegenfuss is co-founder of Clervio, a fractional operator and enterprise transformation venture, alongside partner Jim Elvidge. She also runs MZConsulting, where she works as a Fractional Chief of Staff for CEOs and leadership teams navigating M&A, operating model changes, and transformation. She previously held cross-functional delivery and operations roles at Intuit and NortonLifeLock.

Connect with Martina: linkedin.com/in/martinaz | clerv.io

About your host

Christine Kahn is a Staff Technical Program Manager with 12+ years leading AI platforms and program delivery at Intuit, OpenTable, 20th Century Fox, and Realtor.com; and a musician and soundbath practitioner outside of it.

Connect: linkedin.com/in/christinekahn | christinekmusic.com

© 2026 Dreams and Delivery LLC. All rights reserved.

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:00

Welcome to Dreams and Delivery, real stories from pros who deliver at work and dream beyond it. I'm your host, Christine Kahn. By day I'm a technical program manager in big tech. By night, I'm a musician and a sound bath meditation practitioner. Today I'm joined by Martina Ziegenfuss, Senior Director of Operations at a cybersecurity company, which she did contracting for a year prior. And then she co-founded ClairVio after having her own MZ consulting company. Over there, she works as a fractional chief of staff, helping CEOs and leadership teams turn strategy into execution. Martina brings an operations and delivery mindset to everything she builds and crochets sweaters in her spare time. Welcome, Martina. So glad to have you here. I've never had an intro. I love that.

SPEAKER_00 0:49

Thank you. Thank you. I'm excited for you and for this podcast as well. I think it's super cool to like follow your passions. And I think we both came to the same, you know, kind of drive in the same way. So I'm I'm looking forward to talking to you about it.

SPEAKER_02 1:06

Today's conversation, we're going to focus on the skills that make you great at operations and delivery and how they translate into building things of your own, what it looks like to run a venture on the side while stepping into a brand new leadership role, and why Crochet might have more to teach us about pacing than we think. So a little background on Martina and I. We previously worked together in FinTech, and Martina was organizing a program management offsite for all of PMO and invited me to hold a sound bath meditation as part of the event. You know, it's just it's so nice to be able to connect with you again years later and be able to share your story. So I'll get right into it. How did you end up in ops and program leadership? Tell us a little bit about your journey.

SPEAKER_00 1:55

Wow, I I think I have always been the type of person who has to like structure and organize everything, except maybe my own personal life that I'm not the greatest at, but I think organizing other people, I I it comes to me kind of naturally. And so, and I I think I I've enjoyed combining those skill sets, you know, that operational rigor, you know, those things that that go along with operations and program management, but trying to be creative and thoughtful in how I work to execute, you know, the projects that I worked on. So I started out actually in library science and worked in in the the technical side of library science for for quite a while and then sort of moved strangely to my space, which was uh kind of a sideways step. Uh, but I was very interested in the software and how this the site was built, and then from there kind of leveraged the fact that you can be a great organizer, operations person, program manager, project manager in almost any subject area. It's just a matter of taking the skills you have and then like learning that new subject area. So then I moved to a new thing.

SPEAKER_01 3:15

How did you end up in operations and program leadership?

SPEAKER_00 3:18

That's a good question. So I started out um in library automation, actually. Really, I had an English degree and thought I should be in libraries, uh, but I was really more interested in the technical side of the library. And so I transitioned to more, I guess, you know, kind of program management or client representment type roles for the tech company that supported the library and um stayed there for quite a long time, but was interested in maybe taking those skills and looking in other industries. So I went to MySpace, I worked for a while at Norton Lifelock, you know, other companies. And um, I just I found that being able to help organizations to, you know, build programs based on their strategy was something that I could do, you know, in any setting. It didn't have to be necessarily, you know, one one industry. And so just kept building from that. And every time I've changed roles, I've I've learned a lot about that specific area, you know, of of work.

SPEAKER_02 4:22

Could you tell

Starting a Consulting Company

SPEAKER_02 4:23

us about your consulting company that you started and how that came about?

SPEAKER_00 4:27

Yeah, so this is probably where you you know me a little bit, you know me best or you know me better. I, in full disclosure, was laid off from a major company. I was, I will say I was quite happy to be laid off. I was really feeling in a rut. I felt like I wasn't really growing. Uh, I find a lot of times that when you join larger companies, uh, there are a lot of rules and and ways of doing things that are baked into that culture. And so it's really hard to be creative and say, you know, I'm not gonna follow this playbook on how we should run this program. I want to, you know, try something different or I want to like experiment with ways of working with the team. And I just didn't feel that was something I could do comfortably in that role. And so when I was laid off, I was, to be honest, super happy. And then I but and as I got out, I actually started to think about well, what do I really want to do? Do I want to go straight back into another company and do the same things? And it kind of hit me that all my life I had always had like one role, one company, one job, you know, and started to kind of recognize that, you know, the ability to be able to diversify and have more than one way of defining myself and the way I do work was actually a lot better for me and and a lot more freeing. You know, I didn't feel like I had like to rely on one thing. I could actually branch out into a lot of different areas. So after I was laid off, to your point, Christine, I did a lot of crocheting, I did a lot of traveling, I I went around and thought about what do I really want to do. And when I wanted to come back into working, as you know, like the the industry is so hard in tech to just go and and apply for the standard program management operations job. You know, first of all, like the descriptions, the the roles, they're all kind of the same. You know, there's not a lot that you it's hard to differentiate yourself. And so I was just not finding much success and I was really not enjoying it, and I kept wondering why am I applying for these things at places I don't really want to work, you know, and so I decided like I would just start my own business, you know, and so I just said, okay, I'm just gonna start this thing and it's called MZ Consulting, and I don't have any customers and I don't have a solid plan, but I know that I have a lot to offer and I'm I'm pretty open to, you know, to experimenting and trying new things. So I, you know, I bought my uh domain name, I did all the things right. And I just started posting on LinkedIn about like, oh, super excited to have started my own company. And in a way, it's as if I manifested that thing to happen because once I started saying it and talking about it, people would reach out to me and they're like, oh wow, you know, we'd love to have you come on, but we only have like, you know, like 20 hours a week. We can't really afford to have you full time. And I was like, that's fine. I can still keep doing my creative thing and I can work for you. And so as a result of that, I started getting these smaller gigs, but they just started to grow, you know, they started to need more hours and it became a little bit almost unmanageable. And it's like a, what is it, a good problem to solve, right?

unknown 7:44

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 7:46

Yeah, I'm so bummed because I really love the story that you were telling about feeling like you were stuck in the box. Maybe if you don't mind like kind of covering a little bit of that again.

SPEAKER_00 7:54

Yeah, I'll do it again. And um, yeah, and then feel free when you're when I'm talking to you know, jump in. Like I don't I'm not quite sure sometimes when I should, you know, pause for you or not.

SPEAKER_02 8:06

Yeah, no, no, keep going and then I'll just like jump in if you know, if there's like a good good piece to delete it to.

SPEAKER_00 8:14

Okay. So your question for me was um how I got to um starting my own business, right?

SPEAKER_02 8:22

Yeah, just if you could say uh a little bit about your consulting journey, you know, how you ended up starting that and how the experience was for you. Kind of like why why you decided to do that?

SPEAKER_00 8:35

Yeah. Um so um I was you know working for a major company and um I just kept feeling as I was working for them that I was doing program management, I was uh at a high level there. Um, but I kept feeling like every time I would take on these larger initiatives, that um there was just not a lot of creativity to the way I would be able to work. And I found that in larger companies with, you know, that you usually they have a they have a structure or template, they have a way of working. You have to fill out these forms, you have to uh conduct these set of meetings, you have to do things in this way, and um, and I just could not, I felt like could not fit into that mold. Um, and it felt really inefficient to me. And everybody would say it, you know, but no one would like change it. And so um when uh ultimately when I was laid off from that company, I was actually super happy. I was excited to um to be kind of forced into this change. But on the other side of that, I was really amazed at how um dependent I had become on one thing, on one company, on one structure. And it was not it was not a great feeling because you know, and I think a lot of people feel this where it's like, oh, I finished that, now I have to go find the next thing. And so I did the usual, updated the resume, went on the LinkedIn, looked up different jobs at different companies, but every time I would read them, they would all feel exactly the same. And I would just have this awful feeling like, oh, I'm gonna go back into this again, and you know, it's it's just gonna be tough. And so I started, I you know, I traveled a lot, and as you alluded to in the intro, I started picking up crochet, which is very silly and funny, with a friend of mine who um she's self-taught. So we just started joking it and and started doing it a little more seriously. Um at the same time, I started thinking about like, well, what am I gonna do from for work? Because I'm not gonna make a million dollars on crochet. So I have to have something to fund the uh the the this uh fun uh pastime I have. So um I just decided one day, I don't know how, but I just decided one day, like, I'm just gonna start a business, but I'm gonna and I'm gonna use AI a bit to get it structured and to give me advice. And I'm just gonna like pretend like it exists. So I made my first post, you know, uh, I created MC Consulting, I bought the LLC, I did the um, I did the domain, I got everything together, and then I went on LinkedIn and did one of those. Oh my god, I'm so excited to have started a business and have all these clients, which I had done. And so I I then just started to kind of, I guess, fake it till you make it, right? So then people were excited for me. They were like people were commenting so positively, and I thought, wow, this is crazy. And then people were started reaching out to me that I had known from my past, and they would say, Oh, like we don't have a full-time role at the company, but you know, like I had one colleague reach out and he's like, Oh, but we have like 20, we can give you 20 hours a week to do like some MA projects and stuff, and but nobody ever wants those, right? Because they want the full-time, yeah. So I was like, sure, I'll do that. It felt like, you know, I was like, okay, I'll pick up the things that people aren't interested in. And and suddenly, like, it turns out they were super interesting, actually. But those things became my in in various companies, and so um I had a like three at going at once, and then one company started to really want more hours, and that became really difficult. And like, how do I balance that? You know, I thought, okay, do I hire? But am I really am I at that level? Like, what am I doing? You know, and it was a lot of soul searching. Um, so I took two kind of very different paths after that. Um, and I and I'm I'm excited about both of them, but you know, um, they're very different from each other as well.

Fractional Leadership and Founding Clervio

SPEAKER_02 13:03

Yeah, I wonder if you could tell us about Clairview, the new, the new copy that you founded and how fractional leadership differs from consulting.

SPEAKER_00 13:15

Yeah, so and and it's something that like I you know, I kind of I thought I invented, but then I looked and I saw, oh, this is a thing, you know, like it's not it wasn't a kind of a well-talked about thing that I could see, but um I had the consulting role with MZ, the MZ consulting work, and I was doing well with that, you know, and it was really just kind of it was like a scrappy thing. It was like me going into companies, figuring, organize, I wouldn't even call it like program management or operations. It was just like it was almost like a task force. Like I would, I would parachute in, like figure out what the problem is, figure out how we could get the teams to work together to solve the problem, you know, kind of move on to the next thing, you know, and then um, you know, kind of yes, work with them to kind of maintain a structure, but just, you know, really like it was very targeted. Um, and so I have a colleague of uh that I've had forever. He's a dear friend of mine too. His name is Jim Elvidge, and he has um he's a uh agile, he's an agile consultant, but he's like way more than that. Like he has um just so much content and experience and a breadth of knowledge in um like in workshops on how to facilitate teams and how to like you know um make sure that you're prioritizing the right work. And so we started talking a lot about starting another business, and that is kind of where Clairvia started. And we worked on this for like a year. We decided that it's just the two of us. I didn't have like the skill set to build a website or do any of that stuff, so we literally built the entire business using AI. So I just started, we wrote a white paper and then we started writing, you know, brainstorming together for how we would market something like this and what would it be and how would it work? And and the idea is essentially, you know, to have we we started out with the idea of having a more of a consulting service around fractional leadership. So the idea being that uh, you know, like a fractional chief of staff to me is uh, you know, maybe like a program manager on steroids, right? It's someone who not only understands how things are connected, but also kind of can dig really deep into understand the subject matter and kind of really direct traffic and work with leadership and tell them this is the way we should go, help build strategy.

SPEAKER_02 15:54

So I think there's also something really powerful about being able to come in and not being directly embedded in the team to the point that you're impacted by the politics or whatever internal standard way of doing things has become. So you can come in with a fresh set of eyes, tell them the real, real, and ask the hard questions to really help them.

SPEAKER_00 16:18

Absolutely. Yeah, and that's that was what Jim and I were really um focused on initially was to create this this service that was not just this typical consultant who came in, assessed your problem, and left you with a PowerPoint and then went away. You know, we're like, yeah, here's a playbook, here's what you should. Here's a bill and go figure it out. Figure it out, or this is what you should do, but then not really follow through. So we were like, how can we um take his, you know, like wealth of knowledge? And he's really much more like academic and philosophical about how things are put together, although, you know, he's he definitely will roll up his sleeves and do the work, but he's got just a such a breadth of knowledge, and then and then I had a little bit more like the experience on the ground, like talking tough to people, like giving them the real story. And so we decided to put that together as Clairve, which is you know, offers those kind of services to like do like day diagnostic sprints or you know, have execution resets. Um, but we started to really think about since we were using AI to build the business, like how we could use AI to also facilitate some of these things. And um, then one day I was thinking about all of his work, and I thought, geez, like we we have enough information and and like workshops, things that he he has built over time to be able to help people, regardless if we're sitting in the room with them. And so that's where we started to branch out and create this assessment that is that exists on Clarview. Um, and the idea is you go through it's 31 questions. Jim and I often debate on if it's too long or not, but it is incredibly thorough. Um, the questions are are weighted, you know, and then you at the end are kind of ranked in terms of these um, you know, these these, oh let me pause for a second. You're ranked in terms of um just these uh categories of of like I guess kind of dysfunction, you know, areas where you can improve. And so an example which you and I are both really familiar with is like portfolio overload, where like everything is a priority, so that's a priority, or you know, diffused ownership where like the work is spread across many teams and nobody is there to really lead it, you know, and so identifying where you have gaps, you know, in the way that you're delivering the work at your company, and then being able to dig in and say, okay, we can create a custom playbook or we can create a targeted um assessment and engagement with you based on those areas. So you're not hiring someone just for like a catch-all, like, oh, come consult my teens. You know, we're like trying to figure out what is the actual problem and then go in and solve those with either, you know, we're working on these um customized, like kind of playbooks that are customized to your business and and quite intense, and you know, include in written form things you can do yourself, um, or you know, be available to be able to do those kind of uh targeted engagements with a company.

SPEAKER_02 19:48

Yeah. I'm

How AI Helps a Small Business

SPEAKER_02 19:49

curious how do you juggle all of this at the same time? And I mean, you know, you're kind of building building your dream, your own business um while having a full time and yeah, you know, how I guess I know it sounds like AI is helping with some of that. Uh any any tools of uh preference?

SPEAKER_00 20:11

AI helps a lot. I do, yeah. I I guess you you mentioned too, I did, I wanted to say for anybody who's like looking for like what's the magic way to get another job. The magic way to get another job is just what I described in some ways with with MZ Consulting. Like I had all these small clients giving me small pieces of work, and once they saw what I could do, it was almost like I was it was a test drive. Then, you know, I had them come to me and and and offer me full-time roles, you know, and so one of them I did take, you know, and at a cybersecurity company. So I am a senior director of operations at a company. I I also, you know, work with Clairview. Um, I keep them very, very separate. Um, and I am really more responsible for building the site and building the experience and consulting with Jim on the material because it's really important to me to keep it separate between you know my full-time professional life and this this company that I want really to take off. Um, and then crocheting too. And how do I balance it all? Uh, I don't know. Like people are always like asking me, like, how do you do all this stuff? And I probably wake up way too early. I get up at like sometimes 4 or 5 a.m. And I but I can't stop thinking about it. Like I can't stop thinking about one of these things and like how I want to to make it better.

SPEAKER_02 21:41

Um, and I think I think there's there's probably an element of you are passionate about it. And that's why you'll wake up early, you know. It doesn't feel like work because it's what you want to be doing, it's aligned with who you are.

SPEAKER_00 21:54

Yeah, yeah. And there is there is some of that, like I've got to get stuff done, but there is more. Once I started with Jim started ClairView, I I really like sometimes wake up and I think, why aren't people clicking on this area? Or why are people maybe stalling through the assessment? Like, what can I do to go in and like make this better? And it's similar to, I guess, to the way I kind of grew up in program management. Like I I never there, I I you know, I probably should have gone and like done the official become the buttoned up official, you know, program manager or become the official marketing manager. But it's like I've just picked up these skills and put them together to to solve the problems that like that I need for myself, but also that I see in companies. And so everything that Jim and I, you know, talk about through Clairve, everything that we've written about or that we do is just based on it, yes, it's some a lot of it's created with AI, but it's based on our personal experiences and our like our passion for like figuring these difficult problems out, you know.

SPEAKER_02 23:07

Any life lessons from your crocheting that apply to the well.

SPEAKER_00 23:14

So, you know, crocheting is like very um, you know, it's it's very specific. You know, you you it can be very specific. There's a set number of stitches, there's you know, maybe five to ten stitches that you you gotta know to be able to crochet, but but you can and you can follow a pattern, which I've done. But like actually what I tend to do now, which maybe is not a surprise to you, is I'll just start crocheting a shape and I'll think, what do I want this to be? Oh, this is a rectangle. Okay, let's let's make a jacket out of it, or oh, this is you know, I'm want something like a circle. I don't know, let's make something like to cover up my cat tree bed thing, you know, like this is so so agile of you to just adapt as you go and see how it feels.

SPEAKER_02 24:03

Exactly. It's organic.

SPEAKER_00 24:06

Yeah, and I I actually like for a while there, um, as I was doing these three things, I was also, I went to a little flea market here near where I lived and um, you know, tried to do sales, like sell my the things I was making, and it was okay. But I did realize like crochet is one of those things that people either love it or don't love it, and they don't really appreciate how much time it takes to make something, and so they see something that they could get maybe that's machine made at Target, and they're like, Oh, this should be 20 bucks, you know. So then I realized, no, this is the kind of stuff that I make for myself or for my friends, or you know, just you know, for just fun gifts for people randomly. Like I've gone and just given people had this thing for a while where if somebody liked a scarf I was wearing when I was out, I would just give it to them, which is kind of weird.

SPEAKER_02 25:03

But um making me think of that story you told me about your your friend who does walking tours in Paris, but then funds he uses it to fund his dream of writing.

SPEAKER_01 25:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 25:15

And like that's a fun project or passion.

SPEAKER_00 25:19

Exactly. And like that's what kind of inspired me, I think, when I when I left when I was when I was left the the company, I was laid off. Then I I went to I actually my daughter lives in Paris, so I went there for a long time and I met a friend there that he does walking tours, but he's also a musician and he's all this stuff. His wife starts literary magazines, and and I was just thinking, oh my god, these are like the ultimate bohemians, I love it. And he told me one time, he's like, I do the walking tours, which in itself seemed really fun, but you know, he says, I do the walking tours, that's my quote unquote job, that's what makes the money, right? And I use that then to fund all the creative things I do. And I, you know, I was still searching at that time for what I wanted to do, and I was like, Yeah, like that's right, you know, like that's how it should be in life. And maybe the the thing that you do for work funds multiple creative things, many creative things, but you have to figure out how to continue to make time for it and not let, and that this happened to me, but not let the work all consume you and then close out the creative side, you know, you have to kind of balance the two, and that I think is the hardest thing.

SPEAKER_02 26:39

Well, thank you so much for sharing your story. Thanks. I think it's something that more people need to hear, and yes, they're considering their own journeys and figuring out the right balance in their lives.

SPEAKER_00 26:51

Yeah, absolutely. It it works out, it really does. And every time I've talked to people who have gone through a layoff or who are like thinking about starting a j a business or whatever, I'm always having done it and sort of made it up from scratch, I'm always like, just do it, like just see what happens, just talk about it like you've done it. And and I I for me at least, I you know, it just starts to happen. People just start to, you know, think of me in terms of the in that way, because I say it so much. So I think that you know can can help anyone who's like probably kind of struggling or kind of knocked us knocked back a little bit by you know, any kind of big change in their life, especially around work.

SPEAKER_02 27:35

So yeah, there's something magnetic for people who are just being their authentic selves, and I think that's what pulls more people, more clients your way who see they're gonna get the real deal. Yeah. So I wish you all the success with Clairview. Thank you. Anything you want to share, where can people find you and connect with you?

SPEAKER_00 27:55

Yeah, um, so I'm on LinkedIn, of course, by my name, Martina Ziginfuss, Z-I-E-G-E-N-F-U-S-S, have to spell it every time. Um, and uh you can you can check out the ClairView website at um it's actually the ClairView, it's C L-E-R-V dot io. Um, so that's it. You just type it in and you'll go straight to the site and the assessments are there. And um, if you connect to me on LinkedIn or if you um want to contact through the ClairView site, that comes to me and to Jim. And we'd love to just talk to you about anything. Like you don't have to like hire us. It's more like if we we're actually really interested in what people are um experiencing and what they're dealing with, and if you know the assessments that we have resonate. So um, you know, so yeah, hit me up in either one of those places and um and then tell me that you you came from Steen's podcast. And then I'll know, I'll know where this came from. But I really appreciate you you putting this together as well. I think this is an amazing um idea. And when you told me in uh when I reached out to you and you told me you were doing a podcast, I my first thought was like, well, yeah, of course. Yeah. It makes sense a little bit. So um I hope to yeah, be on again and you know, and and help, you know, you or anyone else who um, you know, who's kind of trying to find their way through this this strange world, but like sticking with the concept of balance of work and creativity. I think that's where it's what it's all about.

SPEAKER_02 29:37

Awesome. Thanks so much, Martina. Take care. All right, thank you. Bye, bye.